Tech Weekly: Memoto segment (+ Chromecast)

[00:00:07] Speaker A: Hello and welcome to Tech Weekly from The Guardian. I'm Alex Kurtoski.

[00:00:12] Speaker B: And I'm still Jemima Kish.

[00:00:14] Speaker C: I'm definitely Charles Arthur.

[00:00:15] Speaker A: And on this week's podcast, we're sifting through the latest news from the world of technology, including Google's Chromecast and Sky's NOW TV, and a big first hurdle for Bitcoin. And Jemima will be speaking with Martin Källström from Memoto about their lifelogging camera. It's not called a lifelogging camera. It's an interesting twist. Anyway, keep listening to the next 30 minutes of Tech Weekly from The Guardian. Google

[00:00:48] Speaker A: had a big blast this week. It showed off a new version of its Nexus tablet, Android 4.3 got a few tweaks, including multi-user functions on tablets, and they also said that there have been 70 million Android tablet activations. Dang, Charles, that's some big news. What do we make of the tablet news first?

[00:01:06] Speaker C: It's sort of more of the same with the Nexus. So the price rises, the screen improves in density, and it's getting a little bit more thin. Actually, you can never be too thin. So it's sort of, you know, it's what you'd expect. It's a year old. But the interesting thing I think is the price rise, the fact that they're not looking to bear the cost as they did last year for it, or

[00:01:31] Speaker C: either that or else the cost of panels has gone up. So it's hard to sort of give a picture. The thing about the Nexus 7 was that it made a big noise. A lot of the tech gadget sites said, you know, this is really incredible. And Google never gave out any numbers. Asus never really gave out any numbers. You had to really back into the numbers from outside. And it seems like it did about 7 million.

[00:01:54] Speaker D: Yeah.

[00:01:55] Speaker C: in the course of the year.

[00:01:57] Speaker A: This is compared with the other tablets that are out there.

[00:02:00] Speaker C: Compared with other tablets. So you've got things like the Amazon Kindle Fire, which has done a few millions. Amazon hasn't given the numbers again. And the iPad Mini, again, Apple hasn't given specific numbers, but you can sort of again back out the numbers and that's done many more. So the thing is that for all the noise about the Nexus 7, actually the supply has been pretty limited. And the reality is that it's In the developed world, these

[00:02:26] Speaker C: sorts of Android tablets are not making as much headway as it might seem. A lot of the noise about Android tablets, and certainly a lot of the sales of Android tablets, are in sort of the Far East, and they're selling at lower prices.

[00:02:39] Speaker B: What do we know about the numbers of, or rather the popularity of, the smaller versus the larger tablets? This is kind of the inter-tablet wars, isn't it?

[00:02:48] Speaker C: Small is popular. Small is really popular because you can carry it around easily. Big is popular if you're going to be doing sort of work stuff. So, for example, recently in my house, we had a sort of a bit of a flood, we had a plumbing disaster. And the guy came around to do the loss adjustment, to sort of do all the studying it and figuring it out, was doing, he had an iPad, which had an LOB, line of business app, you know, it's supposed to be written for the job. He's taking pictures

[00:03:13] Speaker C: with it, puts a picture in there, types up a few notes, gets sent over the 4G or 3G connection. Bang.

[00:03:19] Speaker A: And when I was traveling across the US, I noticed that there were a lot of pop-ups that were using pop-up shops. And whether it was boutiques or artists or whatever, they were using the full-size tablets because you could get devices that plugged into the connection.

[00:03:34] Speaker B: Yeah, that's IZettle, actually. Yeah, that's a really good Stockholm company called IZettle. We're using that in The Guardian coffee shop because I discovered it in Stockholm and thought it was a really good product. But it's a beautiful interface. And tablets work so well for that. If you look at clumsy traditional retail sort of hardware is really ugly. So yeah, that's a really good application for it.

[00:03:53] Speaker A: But these are, I mean, at the moment we're very much talking about, you know, the major player in the, not in the infrastructure, but in the ecosystem. And Charles, we're purportedly talking about Nexus here, aren't we?

[00:04:06] Speaker C: Yes, we are. But the thing about the Nexus is that for all its specs, light and thin and great quality screen, It's not having a major impact in the consumer space particularly, and in the enterprise space at all.

[00:04:22] Speaker A: Charles, we're looking at a price difference. What's going on there?

[00:04:26] Speaker C: The price is actually the same if you get the same amount of storage. So in the 1 year since it launched, you've got a thinner device with a better resolution for the same price. But where they used to have an 8 GB model which cost £159, now you start at the 16 GB model, that's your base model, which is at a price of £199. And that's the same as it was last year.

[00:04:47] Speaker A: And what's the deal with the new Android 4.3? You know, the idea of having multi-screens is quite exciting, though something that we've got used to if you use Apple products, for example.

[00:04:59] Speaker C: It's more the fact that you have multiple users on the tablet. So that was something which Amazon was offering on the Kindle and Barnes Noble offering on the Nook. And now it's starting to properly come in on the Android, the main Android stream. So the idea there is that, you know, the family buys a tablet and lots of different people can use it. So that's a great idea. I think that's actually going to be very popular. They've also got a sort of kids' corner idea, very much

[00:05:24] Speaker C: like what Microsoft has for Windows Phone, where you can specify particular apps to be used only by the kids. They can't get access to the other apps. And again, that's a good idea. And it'll be interesting to see how Apple reacts to this, whether Apple reacts to this, because there have been all the stories about huge prices for kids buying stuff on in-app purchases. It's still a little bit too difficult to stop kids doing that if they have any sort of access to

[00:05:50] Speaker C: iPads.

[00:05:50] Speaker A: Yeah.

[00:05:50] Speaker C: It's only a few clicks, but it's rather hidden, and that stuff needs to be a lot more visible. So Apple's got a month, 6 weeks or so to go before it releases iOS 7. There's no hint that I've heard about that iOS 7 is going to support multiple users, and for Apple, selling more iPads is always the goal, so why would they put in multiple users? It's just not a helpful thing. They'd say,

[00:06:16] Speaker C: buy another iPad for the kids. So I don't know. It'll be interesting to see where it goes. And of course, that is the thing about multi-user. It kills the sales, in effect. For Amazon, that's fine because they make the money on the content. For Google, perhaps that's their thinking there as well. Make money on the content or monetize the users by finding out what they're doing. But it's not clear where the benefit would be for Apple, and that could be a disadvantage for them.

[00:06:40] Speaker A: Now, monetizing the users, is this not something that's coming out of the Chromecast offering that Google announced this week.

[00:06:50] Speaker B: I think that's just designed to undermine Apple, isn't it? I mean, it's basically an Apple TV competitor. So it's a dongle you plug into the back of your TV and you can stream content from your computer or your mobile device to your telly. It allows you to stream YouTube and Netflix and a few other things, and it's about £35, but we're not going to be able to get it in the UK for quite a while. They haven't said when the date for that would be.

[00:07:14] Speaker C: I think the difficulty about it, it's not actually a direct competitor to the— well, It doesn't do all the things that the Apple TV does, and the price isn't that much different. So it's $35 in the US against sort of $99 or so in the US. The Apple TV is really just a sort of a— it's a sort of a storefront end. So you can get things like out there, you can get Netflix and YouTube and all those other sorts of things. And you can also

[00:07:40] Speaker C: AirPlay stuff from your computer or iPad or iPhone onto the Apple TV, and it's got HDMI. The thing about Chromecast is that it's It's not actually— you can't sort of make it do things in the way that you could otherwise. You can't sort of get content if you're not buying it. And what it sort of does is hands off— it hands a URL from the computer

[00:08:06] Speaker C: to the device, and the device then goes and looks on the web for it. And if the content's not on the web, then you're going to have problems with it. And if you're trying to sort of sling stuff from your computer onto the dongle onto the Chromecast, it's actually got to be quite a fairly hefty device to be able to do the screen synchronization. Otherwise, you'll get dropped frames. So, you know, this was what was being written up about on a site called Android Police, which looked into this

[00:08:31] Speaker C: in some depth. So it's not quite the Apple TV killer. And Apple's got a big lead just in terms of installed base. But of course, you know, Google's been getting a lot of noise about this.

[00:08:42] Speaker A: And Jemima, you— last week, there was a media and a tech mashup on the podcast where media and tech were discussing the connected TV. So we won't go too deeply into this, but what's your take on this scene?

[00:08:57] Speaker B: My take on TV is that there's huge potential and opportunity, but for various reasons, a kind of lack of being truly innovative and thinking about what actually works for consumers, there isn't really the ideal proposition there at the moment. I think there are 2 things that really need to be nailed. One of those is how you actually interact, how you control the television. So Apple's acquisition of PrimeSense, the kind of motion

[00:09:22] Speaker B: sensing technology recently, is interesting from that point of view, because anyone who's tried to navigate to get to content using the remote control will know that that really doesn't work. And you also don't really want to have a keyboard. So there's the input into TV, and then there's also discovery, which I think is an even bigger challenge. And there should be this very intelligent pre-selection of content based on your browsing history,

[00:09:47] Speaker B: based on a kind of editorial selection. You know, The Guardian suggests that this week you watch this, for example. Your friends are watching this, and, you know, this is what you've watched already. It seems really simple to me. I don't know why people aren't doing it, but listen to our podcast from last week.

[00:10:02] Speaker C: I've got to say, I tried a device back in 2000 which did all those sorts of things and was really good at recommending Figuring out what sort of things would be good to watch, and it was called a TiVo. TiVo is really good. You know, TiVo is in— you know, that's why it's in Sex and the City all the time, is that it's a really fantastic piece of software. And actually, it's a big tragedy that it didn't survive in the UK. It got pushed out, in effect, by Sky and Sky+.

[00:10:26] Speaker A: Well, speaking about Sky, Sky announced this week their NOW TV. Charles, what do we know about that?

[00:10:34] Speaker C: It's a little £10 device, it's a dongle which you plug into your TV again. Well, it's more of a set-top box than a sort of dongle in the way of the Chromecast. It has a remote control and it will do things like playing Sky News, playing the iPlayer, and in effect it's their competitor to YouView. So it's their way of getting Sky content in front of It

[00:11:01] Speaker C: sounds—

[00:11:02] Speaker A: all of these things, and Jemima, maybe this is what you're picking up on, but all these things seem to be very, very small wins. Very sort of— they don't seem to be making the advances that you could possibly see with leftward—

[00:11:12] Speaker B: Well, it's because there's this turf war. It's because there's this turf war between the manufacturers who don't want to relinquish the kind of real estate of the television screen, the broadcasters who also want to retain a bit of control, and then the internet giants who have the power. And none of them are really working together in a very convincing way.

[00:11:32] Speaker A: Except, Charles, NOW TV, you can see iPlayer on NOW TV, is that correct?

[00:11:37] Speaker C: Yeah.

[00:11:38] Speaker A: But you're unable to see the other on-demands for terrestrial channels.

[00:11:41] Speaker C: So you can't get 4OD, you can't get ITV Player. So those aren't available yet. Possibly there would be an update which would add them. But you can see that Sky wouldn't really want to have advertising competitors on its set-top dongle. So the iPlayer is not a competitor in the respect that, you know, people with TVs are going to have license anyway, so it's not taking away advertising time from them. But you don't want to have, you know, the 4 IDs, the ITV players, because

[00:12:06] Speaker C: they're advertising.

[00:12:07] Speaker B: I do think for consumers, again, this is just yet another name in a very crowded space. Did they need another service? Did they have to rebrand it NOW TV? It's just another thing to try and convince consumers of, and there's a lot of confusion in the marketplace.

[00:12:22] Speaker A: I have to say, I'm quite confused having not kept up with connected TV. It does seem as if, you know, I don't know what my my YouView is, from my iPlayer, from my 4OD, from my NOW TV, to Chromecast, to Apple TV. They all do just seem to be mashed up in this enigmatic something over there. And now I'm afraid to program my video recorder.

[00:12:42] Speaker C: And that's before you add in the games consoles, which do, you know, many of the same things.

[00:12:45] Speaker B: I think I might just go for a walk instead. I think that's easier.

[00:12:49] Speaker C: But I think it's actually worse in the US, where the TV situation is just dire, to be honest. You know, going over and watching television in the States, really is one of the most soul-destroying things you can do. And, you know, it's often a bit perplexing for British people when Americans are sort of grumbling about their cable TV subscriptions and things like this. And we think, but you've got things like The Sopranos, you've got The Wire.

[00:13:14] Speaker B: You've got WNKBC NSPTV.

[00:13:18] Speaker C: But actually, when you go and watch it, it's really very painful.

[00:13:21] Speaker A: Yeah, you've got Law and Order, the Law and Order channel.

[00:13:24] Speaker C: It's more the fact that you've got the Law and Order channel interrupted by adverts every 5 minutes.

[00:13:29] Speaker A: This is true, but this isn't the media podcast. So if you want to listen to more on media and tech mashup last week's podcast, go to techweekly.guardian.co.uk/techweekly and listen to more, more, more about connected TV. Back to technology. Bitcoin, the digital currency that isn't controlled by a central

[00:13:54] Speaker A: bank, has reached its first hurdle. It's been alleged that a Texas man was defrauding investors in his Bitcoin savings and trust company. That is far from the George Bailey savings and loan company in the, you know, in It's a Wonderful Life, isn't it? Unless, of course, we've moved into some kind of postmodern cyberpunk version of that. We may very well have. Charles, what is going on here?

[00:14:18] Speaker C: So the accusation is that Trenton T. Shavers from McKinney, Texas.

[00:14:23] Speaker A: You have to say it with that accent.

[00:14:25] Speaker C: It's a real name apparently. He's been accused by the Securities and Exchange Commission in the US of running a Ponzi scheme. That is one where the people at the top are, the people who are first in are promised a 7% weekly return. The next ones in are also promised 7% weekly return, and they pay some money in, but their money is used to pay the people who came in first. And as with all these schemes, it can only work as long as it gets bigger. As soon as someone, as

[00:14:50] Speaker C: soon as people stop coming in, or as soon as people say, you know what, I've had enough, I'll cash out now, please. Then the whole thing collapses. And what happened was that he was promising 7% weekly returns. He did get a number of people who actually signed up with him. It was all going on Bitcoin. And then he said, okay, I'm shutting the fund down now. And some people got very suspicious. In fact, some people had been very suspicious to begin

[00:15:15] Speaker C: with, because 7% weekly, even with the way that Bitcoin was moving, and this is back in sort of 2011, 2012 time, even the way that Bitcoin was moving then, It seemed a bit unlikely. To make 7% weekly is always difficult. He claimed he was doing all sorts of legit things and just doing arbitrage, which is exploiting the difference between the value in one place and another place. The SEC says, no, that's not so.

[00:15:39] Speaker A: The SEC also said something interesting that you've quoted at the end of the article. It says, you say, the SEC also issued a warning about the broader risk of virtual currencies, noting that, and this is a great quote, potential investors are often less skeptical of an investment opportunity when assessing something novel new, or cutting-edge. Is this, you know, are they basically saying that anybody who would invest in Bitcoin is a bit of a chump?

[00:16:03] Speaker C: Do you know what? I think that people are generally less skeptical when anything is seen as novel, new, or cutting-edge. I think that actually applies to all sorts of stuff.

[00:16:13] Speaker B: Greed is good.

[00:16:14] Speaker C: Well, it's not just greed, but it's also sort of, you know, they say it's new and shiny, it must be great. But yes, with Bitcoin, certainly people thought, you know, well, it's so new and it's crypto. It's got all the buzzwords. So therefore, they thought it must be fantastic.

[00:16:27] Speaker A: So what will this do for Bitcoin's reputation? Because frankly, that's ultimately what all currency rests on, though some have a reputation that's got a longer tail than others. This one's a very, very fresh and new currency concept.

[00:16:42] Speaker C: In a way, it sort of validates it. If people think that there's enough money sloshing around that they can do some Ponzi schemes— and obviously, we're not saying Mr. Chavers is guilty It's just he's been charged. Then it sort of indicates that there is sufficient interest, there are enough different people involved in it to mean there's sort of a bit of spare money moving around. So, you know, in the short term, I'd say actually it's a— weirdly, it's a good thing.

[00:17:07] Speaker B: I think this is an interesting point about the psychology of the people that are attracted to this. So you maybe have the majority of people, when there is something new, a new concept, actually are wary and skeptical, and they're not people who would naturally be interested in something they don't know much about. And then you get the people who are either insanely creative and wild and they just want to get stuck in and they don't mind. And then you

[00:17:32] Speaker B: have the people that are maybe genuinely a little bit, you know, they just love taking risks and stuff, or they are perhaps a bit greedy. I don't know, Alex, this is your area of expertise.

[00:17:44] Speaker A: We are discussing right now the diffusion of innovations.

[00:17:47] Speaker B: Oh, well, there you go.

[00:17:47] Speaker A: Absolutely.

[00:17:48] Speaker B: I knew you'd have a term for it.

[00:17:50] Speaker A: It's an S-curve. It starts out with early adopters, and this can be for anything. It can be for new currencies, or it can be for new headphones, or it can be for a new cooking technique. It doesn't really matter. But usually you have people who are early adopters, and they generally are risk-takers. They will try something new because they're quite used to existing products or whatever it is. And then slowly, as they start to

[00:18:16] Speaker A: use it and other people around them start to see that they're using it, it gets a bit of a buzz. You know, frankly, Bitcoin was on the front of the New York Times in the early part of this year, so that's a bit of a buzz. Other people start coming on board, which makes it relatively normative. It makes it kind of normal. And then at some point in a successful diffusion, you hit something that's called critical mass, and that's when it seems like everybody just decides, what the heck, let's just dive

[00:18:41] Speaker A: in.

[00:18:41] Speaker B: And where on that curve is Bitcoin then?

[00:18:44] Speaker A: Probably really early still. Like, I wouldn't— I don't expect In fact, for example, does your mom know about Bitcoin?

[00:18:50] Speaker B: Oh, no.

[00:18:51] Speaker A: Well, exactly. And I think we're still very much in the first part of the early adoption period.

[00:18:56] Speaker B: I'll ask her tonight now.

[00:18:56] Speaker A: Check with your mom tonight and report back to us. But the critical mass, especially for something that's as broad, that is something like a currency that has potential to be a kind of a global phenomenon that has value that people are exchanging, will require buy-in from People like your mum, or, you know, people like the guy at the corner shop, or whatever. It's not just going to be a small community, because

[00:19:21] Speaker A: then it remains a small community.

[00:19:23] Speaker B: But then there is the psychology of the people who exploit the early adopters, and that is what has allegedly happened in Mr. Schäfer's case.

[00:19:32] Speaker A: Indeed. Well, you will also at the end always get people who decide not to adopt. So, you know, those are the people, for example, who still have all of their cash money in socks underneath their Underneath their mattresses. And yes, there are people like that out there. Now, a few weeks ago, we heard Jemima's and Charles's hands-on, or I suppose really eyes-on views about Google's Glass. Well,

[00:19:57] Speaker A: Google is not the only company in town playing with wearable tech. Jemima, you spoke with the CEO of Memoto.

[00:20:04] Speaker B: Yeah, this is a small lifelogging camera, in other words. It's a camera that clips to your lapel and takes 2 photos every minute all day. You get to the end of the day and there's a piece of software that kind of sifts through those, will kind of discard the ones that are out of focus, and come up with a suggestion of the best selection to represent your day. That's the interesting bit. Obviously, there are enormous issues around privacy

[00:20:29] Speaker B: and kind of other people's personal space, but we talked to Martin about all of that and more.

[00:20:38] Speaker D: So everybody that uses the camera will have their own reasons to do it, but the main reason I think, it's very much the same function as a mirror has in your bathroom or in your hallway in your home. You want to use the mirror to just check up on yourself and see how you're doing. And with a lifelogging camera, the photos become a mirror of your life. So

[00:21:03] Speaker D: you can look at what people am I meeting, where and when and how do I spend my time, and am I happy with that. And if you see things missing from the photos, then they're probably missing from your life as well. But there's also a very much more casual use case where you just want to grab photos effortlessly from a day you want to remember. And especially rare with this product

[00:21:28] Speaker D: is that It doesn't get in the way. You can capture those photos without having sort of a gadget between you and reality. You can be in the moment, but you can still capture the memories from that moment.

[00:21:41] Speaker B: Well, that's very interesting that you say be in the moment, because I've found myself— I've kind of— I've got out of the habit of saying, oh, this is going to be nice, I'll just take a picture. And now I say, this is going to be nice, I'm not going to take a picture, I'm going to be in the moment and actually look at and And enjoy where I am. But do we really need to take that many pictures? Can't we just use our memories?

[00:22:04] Speaker D: In the moments when you really feel that you are where you want to be, like you're— it's a beautiful day at the beach, and the sun is just coming down and the air is cooling off, and you start thinking about, not about how beautiful it is, but rather, how am I going to describe this on Facebook? In which words? And it's in that moment I don't want to have those thoughts

[00:22:30] Speaker D: at all, but just be there and be in that moment. And the goal with Memoto is to allow people to have it both ways.

[00:22:40] Speaker B: Now, you've thought very carefully about how you present the pictures that people will see after all this capturing has gone on. So tell us about the software and how you would identify the pictures that are really important and how you surface those from the several thousands you'll get in a day.

[00:22:57] Speaker D: As you say, the photos are very much too numerous to look through, and you don't want to do that by hand or manually. So what we do is that we identify what are the important events during the day, or rather what are the natural Segmentation of the day. You probably,

[00:23:24] Speaker D: during a normal day, you spend some time at home, then you go to work and you spend some time at work and have lunch and so on. Then perhaps you do something during the afternoon and evening, and all those events will be what we call moments in the Memoto app that comes with the camera. So we make this natural segmentation of the photos, and for each segment we choose

[00:23:50] Speaker D: one keyframe that represents that moment. And it's really the best photo from a technical perspective, but we also identify what photos have faces, or rather people in them. So in your timeline, you're presented with those keyframes, and those are going to be the photos mainly of the people you met during the day. So One day is represented

[00:24:15] Speaker D: by perhaps 20 or 30 keyframes that you can scroll through. Let's see, this was my day today, and then you can tap into one of those keyframes.

[00:24:24] Speaker B: With Google Glass, when the user wants to send an instruction, they say, OK Glass, so they're sending a signal to the people around them that they're about to record. Is there any similar feature on Memoto?

[00:24:36] Speaker D: Yes, there is. In the case of Memoto, the camera itself is actually the signal that That's right. That there is a camera taking photos. Because the way the camera is constructed, the way you turn it off is actually by taking it off. So you need to put it down in your pocket or put it face down on a table in order to take it off. So

[00:25:01] Speaker D: there's never any confusion about if the camera is taking photos or not, because if you see than it is taking photos.

[00:25:13] Speaker B: Google has come under a lot of scrutiny, rightly so really, over Google Glass and the privacy implications of that. You're a much smaller company, but you must be facing the same kind of questions. What has the reaction been overall to Memoto? Is it curiosity or is it concern?

[00:25:33] Speaker D: I think that most people are actually both very interested but also a bit provoked about the concept of having a wearable camera. So it's not like one group of people are all for it and one group of people are all against it. It's that everybody are both intrigued and sort of a bit creeped out about it. And it— I think

[00:25:58] Speaker D: it's that ambiguity that tells us that we are onto something completely new. It's something that people are not used to.

[00:26:06] Speaker C: Yeah.

[00:26:07] Speaker D: And we are taking that responsibility very seriously to be on the forefront of technology and user patterns like that. So one thing, for example, that really sets us apart from Google Glass, as you mentioned, is that Google Glass, when you activate their streaming mode, you're streaming your surroundings onto the web. And if you happen to walk into

[00:26:33] Speaker D: a bathroom or similar, or a public restroom even, then if you forget about the streaming being on, the images you capture will be immediately put online. And with Memoto, it's completely different because we, by principle, we feel that you need to have

[00:26:59] Speaker D: several safeguards in place. So the first safeguard is that the wearer of the camera makes the choice to wear the camera and feel that this is an appropriate setting to wear the camera. And of course, he or she can be mistaken, forget about wearing the camera. So the next safeguard is that we never allow the photos through our technology to be streamed into the public. So

[00:27:25] Speaker D: The photos go into a private diary, a private journal that belongs to the user, and it requires always a conscious choice by the user to make the photos public afterwards.

[00:27:38] Speaker B: Well, you and Google and just about every other wearable technology company are going to have to set the bar for good practice in this space. But in 2 years' time, is this kind of technology going to be inevitable, or will it still be optional?

[00:27:55] Speaker D: I think that in 2 years' time there's no telling if it will be popularized or not. In 5 or 10 years' time, I think it will be inevitable.

[00:28:06] Speaker B: Well, we will be watching Memoto and its launch with interest. Thank you very much for joining us, Martin, and good luck.

[00:28:13] Speaker D: Thank you, Jemima.

[00:28:14] Speaker A: That was Jemima speaking with Martin Källström from Memoto. That is all we have time for this week. Now we are off on a short summer break. We'll be back with you in September. Thanks for listening, and thanks, of course, to our team, Jemima Kish, Charles Arthur. I'm Alex Kratoski. See you in September.

[00:28:37] Speaker B: For more great downloads, go to guardian.co.uk/audio.